Sunil Mallya, co-founder and CTO of Flip AI, discusses small language fashions with host Brijesh Ammanath. They start by contemplating the technical distinctions between SLMs and enormous language fashions.
LLMs excel in producing complicated outputs throughout numerous pure language processing duties, leveraging intensive coaching datasets on with huge GPU clusters. Nonetheless, this functionality comes with excessive computational prices and issues about effectivity, significantly in functions which might be particular to a given enterprise. To deal with this, many enterprises are turning to SLMs, fine-tuned on domain-specific datasets. The decrease computational necessities and reminiscence utilization make SLMs appropriate for real-time functions. By specializing in particular domains, SLMs can obtain better accuracy and relevance aligned with specialised terminologies.
The choice of SLMs is dependent upon particular software necessities. Extra influencing components embrace the supply of coaching information, implementation complexity, and flexibility to altering info, permitting organizations to align their decisions with operational wants and constraints.
This episode is sponsored by Codegate.
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Brijesh Ammanath 00:00:18 Welcome to Software program Engineering Radio. I’m your host Brijesh Ammanath. At this time I shall be discussing small language fashions with Sunil Mallya. Sunil is the co-founder and CTO of Flip AI. Previous to this, Sunil was the top of AWS NLP service, comprehend and helped begin AWS pet. He’s the co-creator of AWS deep appraiser. He has over 25 patents filed within the space of machine studying, reinforcement studying, and LP and distributed methods. Sunil, welcome to Software program Engineering Radio.
Sunil Mallya 00:00:49 Thanks Brijesh. So completely happy to be right here and speak about this subject that’s close to and expensive to me.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:00:55 Now we have coated language fashions in a few of our prior episodes, notably Episode 648, 611, 610, and 582. Let’s begin off Sunil, perhaps by explaining what small language fashions are and the way they differ from massive language fashions or LLMS.
Sunil Mallya 00:01:13 Yeah, this can be a very fascinating query as a result of, the time period itself is form of time sure as a result of what’s massive as we speak can imply one thing else tomorrow because the underlying {hardware} get higher and greater. So if I’m going again in time, it’s round 2020. That’s when the LLM time period begins to form of emerge with the arrival of individuals constructing like billion parameter fashions and rapidly after OpenAI releases GTP-3, which is like 175 billion parameter mannequin that form of turns into like this gold customary of what a real LLM means, however the quantity retains altering. So I’d wish to outline SLMs in a extra barely totally different method. Not by way of variety of parameters, however by way of like sensible phrases. So what which means is one thing which you can run with assets which might be simply accessible. You’re not like constrained by GPU, availability otherwise you want the largest GPU, the most effective GPU. I feel to distill all of this, I’d say as of as we speak, early 2025, a ten billion parameter mannequin that’s working with like say a max of like 10K context size, which suggests which you can give it like an enter of round 10K phrases most, however the place the inference latency is round one second. So it’s fairly quick general. Like so I might outline SLMs in that context, which is much more sensible.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:02:33 Is smart. And I imagine because the fashions develop into extra reminiscence intensive, the definition itself will change. I imagine after I was studying up GPT-4 really has about 1.76 trillion parameters.
Sunil Mallya 00:02:46 Yeah. That truly a few of these closed supply fashions are actually laborious when individuals speak about numbers. As a result of what can occur is individuals these days use like a combination of knowledgeable structure mannequin. What which means is that they’ll form of put collectively like a extremely massive mannequin that has specialised components to it. Once more, I’m attempting to clarify in very straightforward language right here. What which means is while you run inference by way of these fashions, not all of the parameters are activated. So that you don’t essentially want 1.7 trillion parameters price of compute to truly run the fashions. So you find yourself utilizing some share of that. That truly makes it slightly fascinating after we say like, oh, how huge the mannequin is. However such as you need to really speak about like variety of energetic parameters as a result of that actually defines the underlying {hardware} and assets you want. So if we return once more one thing like GPT-3, after we, after I say one 75 billion parameters, all of the one 75 billion parameters are concerned in providing you with that remaining reply.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:03:49 Proper. So if I understood that appropriately, solely a subset of the parameters can be used for the inference in any explicit use case.
Sunil Mallya 00:03:57 In combination of knowledgeable mannequin in that structure. And that’s a highly regarded for the final perhaps a 12 months and a half, has been a well-liked form of method for individuals to construct and prepare as a result of coaching these actually, actually massive fashions is extraordinarily laborious. However coaching like combination of specialists, that are form of assortment of smaller fashions, comparatively smaller fashions are a lot simpler. And you then put them collectively, so to talk. That’s a rising pattern even as we speak. Very talked-about and a really pragmatic method of truly going ahead in coaching after which working inference.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:04:34 Okay. And what differentiates an SLM from an knowledgeable mannequin? Or are they the identical?
Sunil Mallya 00:04:39 Yeah, I’d say how we’ve ended up coaching LMS have been basic goal fashions. As a result of these fashions are skilled on web corpus and no matter information you may get hand. So by the character of like while you have a look at web, web is all of the form of subjects of the world which you can take into consideration and that defines the traits of the mannequin. So therefore you’ll characterize them as general-purpose Massive Language Fashions. Knowledgeable fashions are when mannequin has a sure experience or such as you don’t care about, let’s say you’re constructing a coding mannequin, which is an knowledgeable coding mannequin. You don’t essentially care about it understanding something about Napoleon or something to do with historical past as a result of that’s irrelevant to the dialog or the subject of selection. So knowledgeable fashions are one thing which might be targeted on one or two areas and go actually deep. And SLMs are the time period being simply Smaller Language Mannequin from a measurement and practicality perspective. However usually when you concentrate on what individuals find yourself doing is you might be saying that, hey, I don’t care about historical past, so I solely want this little a part of the mannequin, or I simply want the mannequin to be knowledgeable in just one factor. So I let me prepare a smaller mannequin. We simply targeted on only one subject after which it turns into an knowledgeable. So that they’re interchangeable in some respect however needn’t be.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:06:00 Proper. I simply need to deep dive into the variations and attributes between SLMs and LLMs. Earlier than we go into the main points, I’d such as you to outline what a parameter is within the context of a language mannequin.
Sunil Mallya 00:06:12 So let’s speak about, this really comes from, if we go background, the entire idea of neural nets and early days, we name them neural nets. They’re modeled on the organic mind and the way I suppose the animal nervous system and mind features. So this elementary unit is a neuron, and neuron really has a cell, has some form of reminiscence, some form of specialization. The neuron connects to many different neurons to kind your total mind and sure responses primarily based on stimuli like sure different units of neurons form of activate and provide you with form of the ultimate response. That’s type of what’s modeled. So a parameter like you’ll be able to form of give it some thought as equal to love a neuron or a compute unit. After which these parameters come collectively to form of synthesize the ultimate response for you. Once more, I’m giving a really high-level reply right here that what interprets to, from a sensible viewpoint.
Sunil Mallya 00:07:08 Like when, after I say 10 billion parameters or mannequin, that roughly interprets into X variety of gigabytes and there’s a, I might say there’s an approximate components and, it is dependent upon the precision that you just need to use to characterize your information. So in the event you take about like a 32-bit illustration floating bit, that’s about 4 bytes of information. So that you multiply 10 into 4, that’s 40 gigs of reminiscence that you might want to retailer these parameters as a way to make them practical. And naturally you’ll be able to go half precision. And you then’re abruptly taking a look at solely 20 gigs of reminiscence to serve that 10 billion parameter mannequin.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:07:48 It’s an excellent instance evaluating it to neurons. It brings to life what parameters are and why it’s necessary within the context of language fashions.
Sunil Mallya 00:07:56 Yeah, it’s really the origin itself, like how individuals really thought of this within the fifties and the way they modeled and the way this lastly advanced. So moderately than it being an instance, I might say individuals went and modeled actual life neurons to lastly provide you with the terminology and the way the design of these items, and to at the present time, individuals form of examine every part to rationalizing reasoning, understanding, et cetera, very human like ideas into how these LLMs behave.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:08:26 Proper. How does the computational footprint of an SLM examine to that with an LLM?
Sunil Mallya 00:08:33 Yeah, so computational footprint is immediately proportional to the dimensions. So measurement is the primary driver of the footprint, form of like, I might say perhaps like 90%. The remainder of the ten% shall be one thing like how lengthy is your enter sequence? And these fashions usually have a sure like most vary again within the day. I might say like a thousand tokens or roughly tokens. A definition of, let me form of go slightly segue into how these fashions work. As a result of I feel which may be related as we dive in. So these language fashions, proper there’s basically a prediction system. The output of the language mannequin for you while you go to a chat GPT or wherever else, prefer it’s providing you with lovely blogs and sentences and so forth. However the mannequin doesn’t essentially say perceive sentences as an entire.
Sunil Mallya 00:09:23 It understands components of it. It’s made up of phrases and technically sub phrases, sub phrases are what we name as tokens. And the thought right here is the mannequin predicts a chance distribution on these sub phrase tokens that enables it to say, hey, the following phrase needs to be now with 99% chance needs to be this. And you then take the gathering of the final N phrases you predicted, and you then predict the following phrase, N + one phrase, and so forth. So it’s auto aggressive in nature. So that is how these language fashions work. So the token size as in what number of phrases if you’re predicting over 100 phrases versus 10,000 phrases is a fabric distinction as a result of now you need to take, while you’re predicting the ten,000th phrase, you need to take all of the 9999 phrases that you’ve beforehand as context into that mannequin.
Sunil Mallya 00:10:16 In order that has a form of a non-linear scaling impact on how you find yourself predicting your remaining output. In order that, together with the basic, as I mentioned, the mannequin measurement has an impact, not as a lot because the mannequin footprint itself, however I imply they form of go hand in hand as a result of just like the bigger the mannequin, the slower it’s going to be on the following token and subsequent token and so forth. So that they add up. However essentially, while you have a look at the bottleneck, it’s the measurement of the mannequin that defines the compute footprint that you just want.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:10:47 Proper. So to carry it to life, that might imply an SLM would have a smaller computation footprint, or that’s not essentially the case?
Sunil Mallya 00:10:55 No, yeah, by definition it might, we’re defining LMS as a sure parameter threshold virtually all the time can have a smaller footprint by way of compute. And simply to offer you a comparability, it’s most likely if we examine the ten billion parameter mannequin that I talked about versus one thing like a one 75 billion parameter we’re speaking about two orders of magnitude, distinction by way of precise pace. As a result of every part shouldn’t be, once more, issues should not linear really.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:11:26 Are you able to present a comparability of the coaching information sizes usually used for SLMs in comparison with LLMs.
Sunil Mallya 00:11:32 Virtually talking, let me outline totally different coaching methods for SLM. So what we name as coaching from scratch whereby, your basically your mannequin parameters. I imply, take into consideration mannequin parameters as this big matrix and this matrix every part begins with zero since you haven’t discovered something otherwise you’re beginning with these zero states and you then give them specific amount of information and you then begin coaching. So there’s that permit’s name it zero weight coaching. That’s one strategy of coaching small language fashions. The opposite strategy is you’ll be able to take like a giant mannequin after which you’ll be able to really undergo totally different strategies like pruning the place you are taking sure parameters out or you’ll be able to distill it, which I can dive in later, or you’ll be able to quantize it, which implies that I can go from a precision of 32 bits to eight bits or 4 bits.
Sunil Mallya 00:12:27 So I can take this, 100 billion parameter mannequin, which might be 400 gigs and, if I chop it by 4 technically it turns into a 25 billion parameter mannequin as a result of that’s the quantity of compute I would want. So there are totally different methods in creating these small language fashions. Now to the query of coaching information bigger the mannequin, the hungrier it’s, and the extra information you might want to feed, the smaller the mannequin, you may get away with smaller quantities of information as nicely. However it doesn’t imply that the precise finish result’s going to be the identical by way of accuracy and so forth. And what we discover virtually is given a form of a hard and fast quantity of information, the bigger the mannequin, it’s more likely to do higher. And the extra information you feed into any form of mannequin, the extra doubtless it’s to do higher as nicely.
Sunil Mallya 00:13:19 So the fashions are literally very hungry for information and good information and also you get to coach, however I’ll discuss concerning the subsequent step, which is moderately than utilizing the SLMs or coaching the SLMs from scratch, high-quality tuning these LLMs, what which means is as an alternative of the zero weights that I talked about earlier, we really use a base mannequin, . Like a mannequin that has already skilled on a sure variety of coaching information, however then the thought is steering the mannequin to a really particular process. Now this process will be constructing a monetary analyst or an precise within the case of, healthcare, like you’ll be able to construct like healthcare fashions in case of Flip AI, we constructed fashions to grasp observability information. So you’ll be able to high-quality tune and construct these fashions. So now to offer you some actual examples.
Sunil Mallya 00:14:13 Like let’s take a few of the hottest open-source fashions the place Llama-3 is the preferred open-source mannequin on the market and that’s skilled on 14 trillion tokens of information. Prefer it’s seen a lot information already, however not at all it’s an knowledgeable in healthcare or in observability and so forth. What we will do is prepare on high of those fashions utilizing the information that now we have curated. And in the event you have a look at Meditron, which is, healthcare mannequin, they prepare on roughly 50 billion tokens of information. Bloomberg skilled a monetary analyst mannequin and that was once more within the tons of of billions of tokens. And now we have skilled our fashions with like 100 billion tokens of information. Now that’s form of the distinction. Like we’re speaking about two orders of magnitude much less information than what LLMs would want. Solely cause that is potential is through the use of these base fashions, however the specialization half, you don’t require as a lot information because the generalization variety of tokens.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:15:20 Alright, received it. And the way do you make sure that SLMs preserve equity and keep away from area particular biases? As a result of SMS are by nature very specialised for a selected area?
Sunil Mallya 00:15:31 Yeah, superb query. Truly, it’s a double-edged sword as a result of on the one hand, while you speak about knowledgeable fashions, you do need them biased on the subject. Once I speak about credit score within the context of finance, it means sure factor and credit score can imply one thing else in a unique context. So that you simply form of needed bias in the direction of your area. In any methods. In order that’s how I take into consideration bias by way of practical functionality. However let’s speak about bias by way of something that’s appearing. Like by way of like now if the identical mannequin is getting used to go a mortgage or decide who wants a mortgage or not, that’s a unique form of bias. Like that’s extra inherent of a decision-making bias. And that comes with information self-discipline.
Sunil Mallya 00:16:20 What you might want to do is, you might want to prepare the mannequin or make sure the mannequin has information on all of the pragmatic issues that you just’re more likely to see in the actual world. What which means is that if the mannequin is being skilled to make choices on providing loans, we have to ensure that underrepresented individuals in society are being skilled, skilled within the mannequin. So, the mannequin, like if the mannequin is just seen a sure demographic whereas coaching goes to say no to individuals who haven’t represented in that coaching information. In order that curation of coaching information and analysis information, I wish to say that is the analysis information. Your check information is, is much extra necessary. Like that must be extraordinarily thorough and a mirrored image of what’s on the market in the actual world. In order that no matter quantity you get is near the quantity that occurs while you deploy. There are such a lot of blogs, so many individuals I discuss to all people’s concern as, hey, my check information says 90% correct. Once I deploy, I solely see like 60-70% accuracy as a result of, individuals didn’t spend the correct quantity of time in curating the appropriate coaching information and extra importantly, the appropriate analysis information to ensure the biases are taken care of or mirrored that you’d encounter in the actual world. So to me it boils all the way down to good information practices and good analysis practices.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:17:50 For the good thing about our listeners, are you able to clarify the distinction between curation information and analysis information?
Sunil Mallya 00:17:56 Yeah, yeah. So after I say coaching information, that is the mannequin. These are the examples that the mannequin sees all through its coaching course of. So the analysis or check information is what we name as a held-out information set. As on this information isn’t proven to the mannequin for coaching. So it doesn’t know that this information exists. It’s only proven throughout inference and by inference, inference is a course of the place the mannequin doesn’t memorize something. It’s a static course of. Every part is frozen, the mannequin is frozen at the moment, it doesn’t study with that instance, it simply sees the information, provides you an output and achieved. It doesn’t full the suggestions loop of if that was right or mistaken.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:18:36 Received it. So to make sure that we don’t have undesirable biases, it’s necessary to make sure that now we have curation information and analysis information that are match for goal.
Sunil Mallya 00:18:47 Yeah. So once more, curation, I name it a coaching information. Like curation can be the method. So your coaching information is what the examples that the mannequin will see, and the check information is what the mannequin won’t ever see throughout the coaching course of. And simply so as to add extra coloration right here, we act good organizations comply with the whole blind course of of coaching or annotating information. What which means is you’ll give the identical instance to many individuals, they usually don’t know what they’re labeling, and you could repeat labeling of the information, et cetera. So that you create this course of the place you might be creating this coaching information, a various set of coaching information that’s being labeled by a number of individuals. And you can even be sure that the people who find themselves labeling this information should not from a single demographic. You’re taking a slice of real-life demographics under consideration. So that you’re getting like range throughout. So that you’re guaranteeing that the biases don’t creep by way of in your course of. So I might say 95% of mitigating bias is to do with the way you curate your coaching information and analysis information.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:20:00 Received it. What about hallucinations in s SLMs in comparison with LLMs?
Sunil Mallya 00:20:05 Yeah. So LLMs by nature, as I mentioned, they’re basic goal in in nature. So that they know as a lot about Napoleon as a lot as like different subjects like how one can write a superb program in Python. Like so it’s this excessive factor and that comes with burden. So now let’s return to this entire inference course of that I talked about. Just like the mannequin is predicting this one token at a time. And now think about for some cause, let’s say any person determined to call their variable Napoleon. And Napoleon predicted the variable as Napoleon and abruptly the mannequin with the context of Napoleon issues like, oh, this should be a historical past. And it goes off and writes about, we requested you to develop a program, nevertheless it has written one thing about Napoleon. What are opposites by way of output? And that’s what hallucination, that’s the place it comes from, which is it’s really an uncertain, the mannequin is uncertain as to okay, which path it must go all the way down to synthesize the output for the query you’ve requested.
Sunil Mallya 00:21:12 And by nature with s SLMs, there’s much less issues for it to consider in order that the house that it wants to love assume from is lowered. The second is as a result of it’s skilled on plenty of coding information and so forth, even when say Napoleon might are available as a decoded token, unlikely that the mannequin goes to veer right into a historical past subject as a result of majority of the time the mannequin is spent studying is just on coding. So it’s going to imagine that’s a variable and decode. So yeah, that’s form of the benefit of SLM as a result of it’s an knowledgeable, it doesn’t know the rest. So it’s going to deal with simply that subject or its experience moderately than assume. So usually an order of magnitude distinction in hallucination charges when you concentrate on a superb well-trained SLM versus an LLM.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:22:05 Proper. Okay. Do you may have any real-world instance of any difficult drawback which has been solved extra effectively with SLMs moderately than LLMs?
Sunil Mallya 00:22:15 Attention-grabbing query and I’ll provide you with; it’s going to be a protracted reply. So I feel we’ll undergo a bunch of examples. I might say historically talking in the event you had the identical quantity of information and also you need to use an SLM versus an LLM, look, LLM is extra more likely to win simply due to the ability. The extra parameters provide you with extra flexibility, extra creativity and so forth, that’s going to win. However the cause why you prepare an SLM is for extra controllability deployment, price accuracy, that form of causes and completely happy to dive into that as nicely. So historically talking, that has been the norm that’s beginning to change a bit. If I have a look at examples of one thing like in healthcare, a pair examples like Meditron these are open-source healthcare fashions that they’ve skilled. And after I have a look at, if I recall the numbers, they’d their model one, which was like a few years in the past, even like their 70 billion mannequin was outperforming a 540 billion mannequin by Google.
Sunil Mallya 00:23:19 The Google had skilled like these fashions known as Palm, which had been healthcare particular. So Mediron. They usually lately retrained the fashions on Llama-3, 8 billion and that truly beats their very own mannequin, which is 70 billion from the earlier 12 months. So in the event you form of examine in a timeline of those 5 40 billion parameter fashions from Google, which is sort of a general-purpose form of healthcare mannequin versus a extra particular healthcare SLM by Meditron after which an SLM version-2, by them it’s like a 10X enchancment that has occurred within the final two and a half years. So I might say, and if I recall even their hallucination charges are so much much less in comparison with what Google had. That’s one instance. One other instance I might say is once more, within the healthcare house, it’s a radiology oncology report mannequin. I feel it’s known as RAD-GPT or RAD Oncology GPT.
Sunil Mallya 00:24:18 And that was the output I bear in mind was one thing just like the Llama fashions can be at equal of 1% accuracy and these fashions had been at 60-70% accuracy. That dramatic a soar that pertains to coaching information and completely happy to dive in slightly extra. So now you see that distinction. Like of like massive fashions. And that’s as a result of when you concentrate on the general-purpose fashions, they’ve by no means seen like radiology, oncology, that form of reviews or information like that doesn’t exist on the web. And now you may have a mannequin that’s skilled on these information that could be very constrained to a corporation and also you begin to see this wonderful, virtually loopy 1% versus 60% accuracy consequence and enhancements. So I might say there are these examples the place the information units are very constrained to the atmosphere that you just function in that offers the SLMs benefit after which one thing that’s sensible. In order that’s one thing that’s like open on the planet. So hopefully I’m completely happy to double click on. I do know I’ve talked so much right here.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:25:24 No good examples. That’s a extremely huge distinction from one particular person to 60 to 70% enchancment by way of figuring out or inference.
Sunil Mallya 00:25:33 Yeah really I’ve one thing extra so as to add there. That’s that is like scorching off the press simply a few hours in the past. There’s a mannequin collection known as DeepSeek R1 that simply launched and DeepSeek, it’s really a, if I overlook, perhaps someplace round like 600 billion parameter mannequin, nevertheless it’s a of knowledgeable mannequin. So activation parameters that I earlier talked about, that’s solely about 32 or 35 billion parameters. So virtually like 20x discount in measurement while you virtually discuss by way of the quantity of compute and that mannequin is outperforming the newest of open AI, 0103 collection fashions and Claude from Anthropic and so forth. And it’s insane. Like when you concentrate on, once more, we don’t know the dimensions of, say Claude 3.5 or GPT-40, they don’t publish it. We do know these are most likely within the tons of of billions of parameters.
Sunil Mallya 00:26:35 However for a mannequin that’s successfully 35 billion parameters of activated measurement to truly be higher than these fashions are simply insane. And I feel it offers, once more, it offers with like how they prepare, et cetera and so forth. However I feel it comes again to the query of the combination of knowledgeable mannequin. Whenever you take a bunch of small fashions and put them collectively, they’re more likely to, as we see these numbers, they’re more likely to carry out higher than like an enormous mannequin that has this one form of big computational footprint finish to finish. I do assume this can be a signal of extra issues to return the place SLMs or assortment of s SLMs are going to be method higher than a single 1 trillion parameter or a ten trillion parameter mannequin. That’s the place I might guess.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:27:22 Attention-grabbing occasions. I’d like to maneuver to the following subject, which is round enterprise adoption. If you happen to can inform us a couple of time while you gave particular recommendation to an enterprise deciding between SLMs and LLMs, and what was the method, what questions did you requested them and the way did you assist them determine?
Sunil Mallya 00:27:39 Yeah, I’d say enterprise is a really fascinating case and my definition enterprise has information that no person’s ever seen. It’s not the information that could be very distinctive to them. So I say like, enterprises have a final mile drawback, and this final mile drawback manifests in two methods. One is the information manifestation, which is the dearth of the mannequin isn’t most likely seen the information that you’ve in your enterprise. It higher not,proper? Like as a result of you may have safety guardrails by way of like information and so forth. The second is making this mannequin sensible and deployed in your atmosphere. So tackling the primary a part of it, which is information. As a result of the mannequin has by no means seen your information. You’ll want to high-quality tune the information by yourself enterprise information corpus. So getting clear information. Like that’s my first recommendation is getting clear information.
Sunil Mallya 00:28:31 So form of recommendation them on how one can produce this good information. After which the second is analysis information. How do you, to my earlier examples. Like I’ve individuals who say like, hey, I had 90% accuracy on my check set, however after I deploy, I solely see 60% or 70% accuracy as a result of your check set wasn’t a consultant of what you get in the actual world. After which you might want to take into consideration how one can deploy the mannequin as a result of there’s a price related to it. So while you’re form of considering by way of SLMs, you’re all the time, there’s a trade-off that they’re all the time attempting to do, which is accuracy versus price. After which that turns into form of like your major optimization level. Such as you don’t need one thing that’s low cost and does no work otherwise you don’t need one thing that’s good, nevertheless it’s too costly so that you can justify bringing it in. So discovering that candy spot is what I feel is like extraordinarily necessary for enterprises to do. I might say these are my basic recommendation on how one can form of assume by way of deploying within the enterprise, deploying SLMs within the enterprise.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:29:41 And do you may have any tales across the challenges confronted by enterprises after they adopted SLMs? How did they overcome it?
Sunil Mallya 00:29:48 Yeah, I feel as we glance by way of many of those open-source fashions that corporations attempt to carry in-house as a result of the mannequin has by no means seen the information, issues maintain altering. There are two causes. One is you didn’t prepare nicely, otherwise you didn’t consider nicely, so that you didn’t come up with the mannequin. The second is the underlying form of information and what you get and the way individuals use your product retains altering over time. So there’s a drift by way of you’re not in a position to seize all of the use circumstances at a given static time level. After which as time goes alongside, you may have individuals utilizing your product or know-how another way and you might want to maintain evolving. So once more, comes again to the way you curate your information. How will you prepare nicely after which irate on the mannequin. So you might want to herald observability into your mannequin, which implies that when the fashions are failing, you’re capturing that when a consumer shouldn’t be completely happy a couple of sure output, you’re capturing that the why any person who’s not completely happy, you’re capturing these features.
Sunil Mallya 00:30:56 So bringing all of this in after which iterating on the mannequin. There’s additionally one factor which we haven’t talked about, particularly within the enterprise, like we’ve talked so much about high-quality tuning. The opposite strategy known as a Retrieval Augmented Technology or RAG, which is extra generally used. So what occurs is while you carry a mannequin in, it doesn’t have, it’s by no means seen your information. And what you are able to do is for certain terminologies or applied sciences or one thing jargons or one thing particular that you’ve, let’s say in your organization Wiki web page or some form of textual content spec that you just’ve written, you’ll be able to really give the mannequin a utility to say, hey, when any person asks a query on this, retrieve this info from this Wikipedia or this listed, storage which you can herald as extra context since you’re by no means seen, you don’t perceive that information and you need to use that as context to foretell what the consumer requested for. So that you’re augmenting the prevailing base mannequin. So usually individuals like strategy in two other ways as they deploy. So both you high-quality tune, which I talked about earlier, or you need to use retrieval augmented era to get higher outcomes. And it’s a reasonably fascinating, there’s a those that debate RAG is best than high-quality tuning or high-quality tuning is best than RAG. That’s a subject we will dive in in the event you’re .
Brijesh Ammanath 00:32:22 Perhaps for one more day we’ll follow the enterprise theme and digging a bit deeper into the challenges. So what are the widespread challenges enterprises face? Not solely in bringing the fashions in, but in addition coaching them, but in addition from a deployment perspective.
Sunil Mallya 00:32:36 Yeah, let me speak about deployment first and it’s underrated. Like individuals deal with the coaching half. Individuals don’t take into consideration the pragmatic side. So one is how do you identify the appropriate footprint of the assets that you just want. Like the proper of GPUs, as a result of your mannequin can most likely match on a number of GPUs, however there’s a price efficiency tradeoff. If you happen to take the large GPU and also you’re underutilizing it, it’s not really sensible. Such as you’re not going to get finances for that. So you may have this form of turns into like these three axes moderately than two axes. So the X axis, you’ll be able to take into consideration the fee Y axis, you’ll be able to take into consideration efficiency or latency and the Z axis, you’ll be able to take into consideration accuracy. So that you’re now attempting to optimize in these three axes to search out this candy spot that, oh nicely I’ve finances authorized for X variety of {dollars} and I would like a minimal of this accuracy.
Sunil Mallya 00:33:37 What’s the trade-off I could make by way of, nicely, if any person will get the reply in 200 milliseconds versus 100 milliseconds, that’s acceptable. So that you begin to like determine this commerce off which you can have to pick out the most effective form of optimum setting which you can go deploy on. Now that requires you to have experience in a number of issues. It implies that you might want to know the mannequin deployment frameworks or the underlying instruments like TensorFlow, PyTorch. So these issues are specialised abilities. You’ll want to know how one can decide the appropriate GPUs and create this commerce off or these trade-offs that I talked about. After which you might want to take into consideration persons are specialists in DevOps when it’s mentioned a corporation, me specialists in DevOps in relation to CPU and conventional workloads, GPU workloads are totally different. Like now you might want to prepare individuals on how one can monitor GPUs, how one can perceive how one can the observative half is available in. So all of that must be form of packaged and tackled so that you can deploy nicely on the enterprise. I do know if you wish to double click on on something on the deployment facet,
Brijesh Ammanath 00:34:48 Perhaps simply rapidly in the event you can contact on what are the important thing variations between deploying or the trade-offs between deploying on-prem and on the cloud?
Sunil Mallya 00:34:58 Yeah, I don’t know. Do you imply within the cloud? Do you imply an API primarily based service or
Brijesh Ammanath 00:35:03 Sure.
Sunil Mallya 00:35:04 Yeah, I imply API primarily based providers, there isn’t a distinction in you utilizing a funds API versus an ML API. Prefer it’s so long as you may make a relaxation name, you’ll be able to really use them, which makes them very simple. However in the event you’re deploying on-prem, what I might say is I’ll make it extra generic. If deploying in your VPC, then that comes with all of the significance that I talked about. With the addition of compliance and information governance. So since you need to deploy it in the appropriate form of framework. One other instance like Flip AI really we help our deployments in two modes, which is you’ll be able to deploy as a SaaS, or you’ll be able to really deploy on-prem. And this on-prem model are, it’s utterly air-gapped. We really, now we have scripts, whether or not it’s like Cloud Native scripts or Terraforms and Helm charts and so forth.
Sunil Mallya 00:35:59 So we make it straightforward for our prospects to go deploy this principally with one click on as a result of every part is automated by way of mentioning the infrastructure and so forth. However as a way to allow that, now we have achieved these benchmarks, these price accuracy, efficiency form of trade-offs, all of that. Now we have packaged it, we’ve written slightly bit about that in our blogs, and that is what an enterprise adopting any SLM would want to do themselves as nicely. However that comes with good bit of funding as a result of it’s not commoditized but by way of deploying LLMs in-house or SLMs as nicely.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:36:38 Yeah. However in the event you decide on that Flip AI instance, what drives a buyer to choose up both the SaaS mannequin or the on-prem mannequin? What are they searching for or what they achieve? Yeah. After they go for on-prem or for the SaaS one?
Sunil Mallya 00:36:50 Yeah we work with extremely regulated industries the place the client information must be not processed by any third occasion and that can’t depart their safety boundaries. So it’s primarily pushed by compliance and information governance. There’s one other factor which is once more, applies to Flip AI, but in addition applies to plenty of enterprise adoption, which I didn’t speak about is robustness. So while you depend on robustness and SLAs and SLOs, while you depend on like a 3rd occasion API, even Open AI or Cloud or Anthropic or any of these, they don’t provide you with SLAs. You don’t inform you like, hey, my request goes to complete in X variety of seconds. They don’t provide you with availability, ensures and so forth. In order an enterprise, take into consideration an enterprise who’s constructing a 5 nines availability and even greater nines of availability. Now they don’t have any management over no person’s promising them. Like we’re utilizing a SaaS service, no person’s promising them X variety of whether or not it’s accuracy and even the nines of availability that they want. However bringing in-house and deploying with finest practices and redundancy and all of this, you’ll be able to assure sure stage of availability so far as these fashions come. After which the robustness half. These fashions are inclined to hallucinate much less. Like in the event you’re utilizing an API primarily based service, which is a extra general-purpose mannequin, you can not have these form of hallucination charges as a result of your efficiency goes to degrade.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:38:20 Hallucination wouldn’t be an element for on-prem and SaaS, proper? That might be the identical.
Sunil Mallya 00:38:25 Nicely, it may be as a result of by way of general-purpose fashions, but when the identical mannequin is out there for SaaS or on-prem, sure, then there’s equivalency there. The opposite is in-house experience. If a buyer doesn’t have in-house experience of managing or they don’t need to take out that burden, then they find yourself going SaaS versus going on-prem. The opposite issue, which is a basic issue I might say is availability or different that is extra of a, I take that again, I used to be going to speak about LLMs versus SLMs, but when the identical mannequin being SaaS or on-prem, it principally comes all the way down to compliance, information governance, the robustness side and being in-house experience and the supply ensures which you can give. It usually comes down to those components.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:39:13 Received it. Compliance, availability, in-house experience. You touched on just a few key abilities which might be required for deployment. So that you touched on mannequin deployment framework, you touched on the data about GPU and likewise about the way you observe the workload on GPU. What are the opposite abilities that, or data areas that engineers ought to deal with to successfully construct and deploy SLMs?
Sunil Mallya 00:39:40 I feel these components I talked about ought to cowl most of them. And I might counsel if any person desires to attempt to get their palms, attempt deploying a mannequin regionally in your laptop computer. There are even these, you’ll be able to with the newest {hardware} and stuff, like you’ll be able to simply deploy a billion-parameter mannequin in your laptop computer. So I might kick tires taking these fashions. Nicely you don’t want a 1 billion parameter. You’ll be able to even go along with 100 million parameter mannequin to form of like have an concept of what it takes. So that you’ll get some experience in diving into these frameworks. Like deployment frameworks and mannequin frameworks. And you then’ll form of get an concept about as you run benchmarks on say totally different sorts of {hardware}, you’ll get slightly little bit of concept on these trade-offs that I talked about. Finally what you’re attempting to construct is that this entry that I talked about like accuracy, efficiency, and price. So that could be a extra pragmatic take I might do is begin in your laptop computer or a small occasion, you may get on the cloud, kick the tires after which that actually builds that have as a result of with form of DevOps and different form of applied sciences, I really feel just like the extra you learn, the extra you get confused and you’ll form of condense that data studying by really simply doing it.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:41:00 Agreed. I need to speak about, transfer onto the following theme, which is round architectural and technical variations or distinctions of SLMs. However I feel now we have coated fairly just a few of these already, which is round coaching information, across the tradeoffs of mannequin measurement and accuracy, however perhaps just a few bits. So what are the primary safety vulnerabilities in SLMS and the way can they be mitigated?
Sunil Mallya 00:41:25 I feel virtually talking safety vulnerabilities should not particular to SLMs or LLMs. They’re not, one has higher over the opposite. I don’t assume that that’s the appropriate framework to consider. I feel safety vulnerabilities exist in any form of language fashions. They manifest in barely totally different method. What I imply by that’s you might be both attempting to retrieve information that the mannequin has seen. So you might be tricking the mannequin to offer some information within the hope that it has seen some PII information or one thing of curiosity. It’s not going to inform you. So that you’re attempting to exfiltrate that information out. Or the opposite is habits modification. Like you might be, you’re form of injecting, it’s form of equal to SQL injection. Like the place you’re attempting to get the database to do one thing by injecting one thing that’s malicious the identical method you’ll try this within the immediate and trick the mannequin to do one thing totally different and provide the information. So these are the everyday safety vulnerabilities I might say that folks have a tendency to take advantage of, however they’re not unique to an SLM or an LLM, it occurs in each.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:42:34 Proper. And what are the important thing architectural variations between SLMs and LLMs and is there any elementary design philosophy which is totally different?
Sunil Mallya 00:42:42 Probably not the identical method that you just use to coach a ten billion parameter mannequin will be achieved for 100 billion or a 1 trillion. Architecturally, they’re totally different on neither are the coaching strategies. I might say. Nicely, individuals do make use of totally different strategies. It doesn’t imply that the strategies should not going to work on LLMs as nicely. Like, so it’s only a measurement equation. However what’s fascinating is how these SLMs get created. They are often skilled from scratch or fine-tuned, however you’ll be able to take an LLM and make them an SLM and that’s a really fascinating subject. So couple of commonest issues that folks do is quantization and distillation. Quantization is the place you are taking a big mannequin and you change the mannequin parameters and this may be achieved like statically, it doesn’t even want an entire course of. What you’re principally doing is chopping off the bits.
Sunil Mallya 00:43:36 You are taking a 32-bit precision, and also you make it a 16-bit precision or you may make an eight bit precision and also you’re achieved. Such as you’re principally altering the precision of these floats in your mannequin weights, and also you’re achieved. Now distillation is definitely a really fascinating, and there are totally different sorts of method. Distillation at a excessive stage is the place you are taking a big mannequin, and you are taking the outputs of these massive fashions and use that to coach a small mannequin. So what which means is its form of a teacher-student relationship, the trainer mannequin that is aware of so much and may produce top quality information, which a small mannequin simply can’t as a result of it has creativity limitations and since the variety of parameters is fewer. So you are taking this huge mannequin, you generate plenty of output from that, and you utilize that to then prepare your small language mannequin, which then can see equal performances.
Sunil Mallya 00:44:32 And there are plenty of examples of this. So if we have a look at the, what I talked concerning the Meditron, even like these fashions known as this Open bio, even multilingual fashions, like what I’ve seen, there was this Taiwanese Mandarin mannequin, once more, like they used like massive fashions, took plenty of information, after which skilled, and the mannequin was doing higher than like GPT-4 and Claude et cetera. All as a result of it was skilled by way of distillation and so forth. That’s a extremely sensible strategy and plenty of fine-tuning occurs by way of distillation, which is generate the information. After which there generally is a extra complicated model of distillation the place you might be coaching each fashions in tandem, so to talk, and you’re taking the alerts that the bigger mannequin learns and giving that to the smaller mannequin to adapt. So that they’re very complicated methods of coaching and distillation as nicely.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:45:25 Okay. So distillation is the trainer scholar mannequin brings it to life. You’ll be able to intuitively perceive that. Whereas quantization is taking a big mannequin and chopping off bits. I’m struggling to grasp that. How does that make it particular to a website or is that this not associated to a website?
Sunil Mallya 00:45:41 No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t. It simply makes it smaller so that you can deploy and handle. So it’s extra of a price efficiency, trade-off, cost-performance-accuracy, trade-off. It doesn’t make you want an knowledgeable mannequin by any means.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:45:56 So it’s nonetheless a general-purpose mannequin.
Sunil Mallya 00:45:57 Right. However what we see and there’s plenty of pattern is, let’s say I prepare a mannequin with X quantity of information, a ten billion parameter mannequin versus 100 billion parameter mannequin after which quantize it. There’s plenty of examples had been taking 100 billion parameter mannequin and decreasing it, quantizing it to the dimensions of your 10 billion parameter mannequin was this coaching one you may get higher outcomes. So it’s the identical goal, similar information, besides you skilled a bigger mannequin and you then quantize it. So there are individuals who have achieved that with plenty of success.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:46:27 Proper. You additionally briefly talked about about mannequin pruning and after we mentioned concerning the differentiation between SLM and LLM attributes, are you able to develop on what pruning is and the way does that work?
Sunil Mallya 00:46:39 Yeah, so after I speak about 10, so one factor now we have to grasp essentially is after I say 10 billion parameters, it doesn’t imply that 10 billion parameters are all storing good quantity of information. They’re all wanted equally to supply the consequence. And that is really analogous to the human mind. Like it’s predicted that the human mind solely makes use of 13% of its total capability. Like the opposite 87% is simply there. So, similar method these fashions are sparse in nature. By sparse, I imply one of the best ways to grasp is, bear in mind after I talked about these matrixes having zero weights? And as you prepare a mannequin, like these numbers change. Like these numbers change and let’s say they increment, you’ve discovered one thing that that parameter is non-zero. So while you have a look at a skilled mannequin, it doesn’t imply that every one the fashions have gone, all of the parameters have gone from zero to one thing significant.
Sunil Mallya 00:47:32 Like there are nonetheless plenty of parameters which might be near zero. So these don’t essentially add something significant to your final output. So you can begin to prune these fashions. Once more, I’m, I’m attempting to clarify virtually that’s extra nuance to this, however successfully that’s what’s taking place. You might be simply eradicating these components of the mannequin that haven’t been activated or don’t contribute to activations as you run inference. So now abruptly a ten billion parameter mannequin will be pruned to love a 3 billion parameter mannequin by doing that. That’s the final concept of pruning. However I might say pruning has develop into extraordinarily much less widespread as a method today. Reasonably combination of specialists, as I talked initially within the podcast, that’s a extra pragmatic method by which the mannequin itself is form of creating these specialised components. Like in your coaching course of you may have an enormous mannequin, let’s say a ten billion parameter mannequin, however you’re creating these specialists, and the specialists are literally defining these paths which might be historical past knowledgeable, math knowledgeable, coding knowledgeable, and so forth. Like so these successfully form of using the house higher when you prepare. In order that’s extra of a state by which we’re transferring. To not say you can not prune combination of knowledgeable mannequin and so forth, nevertheless it’s much less widespread that folks try this. And an element of that’s how a lot environment friendly and sooner GPUs and the underlying frameworks have develop into that you just don’t essentially have to trouble with pruning.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:49:04 Alright, now we have coated plenty of floor over right here. Now we have coated the fundamentals by way of what are SLMs, now we have appeared on the SLM attributes in comparison with LLMs. Now we have checked out enterprise adoption and likewise checked out structure technical distinctions and the coaching variations between SLMs and LLMs. As we wrap up, only a remaining couple of questions Sunil, what rising analysis space are you most enthusiastic about for advancing SLMs?
Sunil Mallya 00:49:30 Love this query. I’ll speak about just a few issues that folks have labored on and one thing that thrilling that’s rising as nicely. Velocity is definitely a vital factor. Like when you concentrate on huge variety of functions that exist on the web or individuals use pace is vital. Like simply because any person one thing is AI powered, you’re not going to say like, oh you may give me the response in 60 minutes or 60 seconds. Like individuals nonetheless need issues quick. So individuals have spent plenty of time on inference and making inference sooner. So a giant rising analysis space is how one can scale issues at inference. There’s a way that folks have form of developed. It’s known as speculative decoding. Now that is similar to individuals who perceive like compilers and so forth. how you may have a speculative branching the place youíre attempting to guess the place the code goes to leap subsequent and so forth.
Sunil Mallya 00:50:24 Similar method in inference, whereas predicting the present token, you might be additionally attempting to get the following token in a speculative method. So that you’re principally in a single go, you’re producing a number of tokens. Like which suggests now you’ll be able to take like half the period of time or 25% of the time it might take to supply your complete inference. However once more, it’s speculative. Which implies the accuracy takes a little bit of hit, however you might be getting sooner inference. So that could be a very, very thrilling space. The others I might say like plenty of work has been achieved on gadget, how one can deploy these SLMs in your laptop computer, in your RaspberryPi. That’s an especially thrilling space. Privateness, preserving method of deploying these LLMs. That’s a reasonably energetic space and thrilling for me, I’ll maintain probably the most thrilling. Is a few issues I might say, which has began within the final perhaps six months because the One collection of fashions that open AI launch, that are the place the mannequin really is considering primarily based by itself outputs.
Sunil Mallya 00:51:29 Now, one of the best ways to clarify that is, the way you most likely labored out math issues in class the place you may have a tough sheet on the right-hand facet, you might be doing the nitty gritty particulars and you then’re bringing that into, substituting into your equations and so forth. So you may have this scratch pad of plenty of ideas and plenty of tough work that you just’re utilizing to carry into your reply. The identical method that’s taking place is these fashions are producing all these intermediate outputs and concepts and issues that it may well use to generate the ultimate output. And that’s tremendous thrilling since you’re beginning to see excessive accuracy in plenty of complicated duties. However on the flip facet, it’s one thing that used to take us like 5 seconds for inference, beginning to take 5 minutes.
Sunil Mallya 00:52:20 Or quarter-hour and so forth, since you’re beginning to generate plenty of these intermediate outputs or tokens that the mannequin has to make use of. Now this entire total paradigm known as inference time scaling. Now the bigger the mannequin you’ll be able to think about, the extra time it takes to generate these tokens, a extra compute footprint and so forth. The smaller the mannequin, you are able to do it sooner and which is why I used to be speaking about all these sooner inference, et cetera, these begin to come into image as a result of now you’ll be able to generate these tokens in a sooner method, and you can begin to make use of them to get greater accuracy on the finish. So inference time scaling is an especially thrilling space. There are plenty of open-source fashions now which have come out which might be in a position to help this. Second is, which is once more like contemporary off the press, there was plenty of hypothesis on utilizing reinforcement studying to coach the fashions from scratch.
Sunil Mallya 00:53:19 So usually talking in a coaching course of, reinforcement studying has been used. So simply to clarify the coaching course of, we do what known as a pre-training, the place the mannequin learns on self-supervised information after which we will speak about instruction tuning the place the mannequin is given sure directions or human curated information. They prepare that. After which there’s reinforcement studying the place the mannequin is given reinforcement studying alerts to, nicely I choose the output in a sure method. Otherwise you give alerts to the mannequin, and also you prepare utilizing that. However reinforcement studying was by no means used to coach a mannequin from scratch. Individuals speculated it and so forth. However with this DeepSeek R1 mannequin, they’ve used reinforcement studying to coach from scratch. That’s an entire new, that opens an entire new chance of on how you’ll prepare. That is utterly new. I’m but to learn your complete paper simply as I mentioned, it launched a pair hours in the past and I skimmed by way of it and it’s been all the time speculated, however they’ve put into analysis paper, they usually’ve produced the outcomes. So to me that is going to open an entire new method of how individuals prepare these fashions. And reinforcement studying is sweet at discovering hacks by itself. So I wouldn’t be shocked the place it’s going to cut back the mannequin measurement and have a fabric affect on these SLMs being even higher. I’m extraordinarily excited with these items.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:54:53 Thrilling house. So you may have spoken about speculative decoding on gadget deployment, inference time scaling and utilizing reinforcement studying to coach from scratch. Fairly just a few rising areas. Earlier than we shut, was there something we missed that you just’d like to say?
Sunil Mallya 00:55:09 Yeah, perhaps I can carry by way of a sensible instance like that I’ve been engaged on for 3 years and placing all of the issues that I’ve talked about collectively. So at Flip AI we actually an enterprise first firm and we needed the mannequin to be sensible in all these tradeoffs that I discussed and deploy on-prem or SaaS, no matter choice for our prospects needed to decide on, we needed to offer the client the flexibleness and all the information governance side. And as we skilled these fashions, proper, we didn’t have any of the LLMs that had functionality of doing something within the observability information house. And this observability information is form of very tuned to what an organization has. You don’t essentially have this information out within the wild. So what we did is to coach these fashions. We use, like most of the strategies that I talked by way of the beginning this podcast, first we do pre-training.
Sunil Mallya 00:56:00 So we gather plenty of information from the web by way of like say Stack overflow logs which might be obtainable, et cetera. After which we put them to a rigorous information cleansing pipeline since you want high-quality information. So we spend plenty of time there to get high-quality information, however there’s solely a lot information that’s obtainable. Like, so we curate, information which might be human labeled. And we additionally do artificial information era much like that distillation course of that I talked about earlier. After which lastly, what I wish to say is the mannequin trains and will get actually good however doesn’t have sensible data. And to realize sensible data, what we do is now we have created this fitness center, I name it this chaos fitness center. Perhaps now we have an inner code title, known as “Otrashi,” and in the event you’re a South Indian native speaker of any of these languages [[Konkani and Kannada]] you’ll respect, which principally means chaos.
Sunil Mallya 00:56:55 And the thought is that this chaos framework goes in, breaks, all these items, and the Flip mannequin predicts the output after which we use reinforcement studying to align the mannequin higher on, hey, you made a mistake right here or, hey, that’s good, you predicted it appropriately, after which it goes and improves the mannequin. So all these strategies, there’s nobody reply that offers you efficiency out of your SLMs. You need to use a mixture of these strategies to carry all of this collectively. So whoever is constructing enterprise grade SLMs, I might advise them to assume in comparable method. We’ve received a paper as nicely that’s out. You’ll be able to verify it on our web site that walks us by way of all of those strategies that we’ve used and so forth. Total, I might say I stay bullish on the SLMs as a result of these are sensible in how enterprises can carry and provides utility to their finish prospects and LLMs don’t essentially give them that flexibility on a regular basis, and particularly in a regulated atmosphere, LLMs are simply not an choice.
Brijesh Ammanath 00:58:01 I’ll ensure we hyperlink to that paper in our present notes. Thanks, Sunil, for approaching the present. It’s been an actual pleasure. That is Brijesh Ammanath for Software program Engineering Radio. Thanks for listening.
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